You’re a professional, you’re doing professional development, you’re looking for answers, you’re looking for content you want to know more about the international landscape for safety. I’m talking to my good mate today Andrew Barrett from the Safety on Tap Podcast and his coaching and consulting company Fidesa we’re talking all things safety and safety leadership, safety development safety coaching, and your ‘why.’ Stay Tuned We were talking about this work this guys work and we’re talking about like working for safety. Well I mean my words it’d be like working for safety sake versus working for an outcome you take the stomach away you take that away you take some of those things we do away and it doesn’t actually change what’s going on. Andrew – It’s a question of going what’s the purpose so like there’s always an outcome I mean most of the work that we do has an outcome it’s just a case of actually going what is that outcome? so what we were talking about is you know we might say there’s end of month reporting for example, that’s a part of most management systems and what most good companies ask for the question is what purpose does that serve? so people think that tracking whatever safety indicators you might track in the system actually helps safety but it’s disconnected from actual safety outcomes because that’s the stuff that’s happening on site with the frontline people who are actually doing the work and so if you took away that reporting with the safety on the frontline change? probably not is it still important or is it still relevant or is it is there still an outcome? yeah there is. It’s just we need to make sure that we’re not kind of kidding ourselves about what the purpose of it is what the outcome is we’re trying to achieve yeah have you heard me talk about the concept of good idea shelf? Andrew – No. Kobi – So you come up with all these great ideas we’ve got them all the time. Andrew – Where’s your good idea shelf? Kobi – Well it’s in my office, it should stay in my office and not come out into the business. I might have the good idea it might be the bright and shiny thing but you have these good ideas let’s leave them on the good ideas shelf and get on with business ok and like you know some of these guys here you’re like you get the text messages on a Friday night oh you know what we should do next week we should ‘blah blah blah’ it’s like ok well some of those things get the green light particularly with people with autonomy and off they go off on their tangent but there’s not we’re not bringing it back to understanding how that you know how that’s gonna get them out there that’s all thats in all aspects of business but it’s funny when you think about and I think safety is different to a lot of different aspects of business so you probably got a broader view then some of this research that’s been done by Drew Ray and Dave private at Griffith University where they looked at they looked at those purposes of the work that we do that we call safety work and they actually said one of the problems that exists is the asymmetry between the creation of new safety stuff and the removal of safety stuff so if you think about an audit or an investigation or an inspection or a regulator intervention or a board meeting or anything like that there’s lots of triggers for where we want to feel like we’re making progress and so action comes because of that. We want to show management they were doing something or we want to have a corrective action further whatever and so then we create this safety work whatever it is, new procedure, change something, put more people through training, whatever and so it feels like we’re making progress more safety work leads to more safety. That assumption is probably the biggest flawed assumption and so we very much find that we add and add and add and add and then we have these behemoth systems and you and I have seen many of them and probably contributed to many of them and then we but then you gotta ask yourself the question when do we take away? Kobi – Absolutely. Andrew – and it’s very hard, most people don’t ever actually go oh we’ve got a taking away process. You talked about your ideation process and going well there’s gates and filters and decision-making kind of criteria whether that’s formal or informal, doesn’t matter but what about the opposite. Most businesses especially for safety don’t do that and you know why? Kobi – Too scary. Andrew – it’s scary it’s like if you take something away from safety you’re not committed to safety or if it goes wrong then they’re going to say you took something away and that might have actually had something to do with it so we’re scared. Kobi – Yeah and we end up with form Friday. Have you guys heard of form Friday? it’s form Friday, so it’s like today’s form Friday. That’s what happens so if your business has a culture of form Friday you need a taking you a process. Andrew – Yeah yeah but almost no one has that and I think that in that in the context of management systems I mean this I gave this work was done specifically safety but I think that there’s some broader learnings that come out of that and this is very consistent with the work that you guys do, which is saying that systems aren’t about the paperwork it’s about the paperwork enabling the process and the outcome and the taking away bit has to be part of that. That’s part of your continuous improvement loop but I’ve almost never seen it. Kobi – You don’t see it you know that’s why we we you know we wrote that book 5 what was it five ways to minimize documents as a downloadable checklist because it just doesn’t exist, it just it just doesn’t exist. Here’s a really good like a really good case study we’ve been using here at Best Practice pre-start meeting everyone’s doing it, maybe it’s not getting the outcome but we’re doing because everybody does it. Well, we’re not but we’ve moved that into a private secret Facebook group so we don’t have to stop the whole business to have that meeting we do a live post if people are available, we notify them there’s going to be a live post in the business run the live meeting if people are not available, client meeting, family issue, day off, whatever it might be they can then check back into the Facebook. Essentially because they’re following the group don’t have to be friends on Facebook. Andrew – But they will get a notification. Kobi – They’ll get a notification the group was live all that sort of stuff. What Facebook gives us is a ‘seen’ by now the people that audit us are now acknowledging that as an attendance register there’s all the arguments about well what if the person didn’t actually follow the post or read the post. Well that’s no different to if the person fell asleep in the pre-start meeting. Andrew – but what the computer-literate supervisor at the contractor does all the inductions for all the other workers. Kobi – Absolutely so for us wwe’ve got a small step in the right direction let’s just we can have the conversation later about whether you use Facebook or don’t use Facebook or your Facebook user but we’ve got people in this company who were not Facebook users. We issue them with an iPhone, we issue them with the Facebook app on that iPhone and we issue them with a profile. The only thing in their Facebook account is the company group so for them it’s just a button like it’s okay it’s Facebook but for them it’s just a button on a phone like you can’t find them you can’t discover them on Facebook they can’t get friend requests none of that sort of stuff because they for their personal privacy no photos of them it’s just literally just their name and a poop emoji and that’s it, you know and so then they see that stuff so we’ve taken away and there’s other ways to do it or we’ve taken away you know that bit of paper that you then go what do I do with the pre-start? look I’ve got evidence now that everybody was at that meeting or receive that communication it’s like a read receipt. it is interesting but then if you dig down in our management system you’ll find the attendance register is still there Andrew – And I think it’s important one of the things that I kind of really like about this work that’s been done is that like none of this is new, so we’re having a conversation about it and we’re both going here we’ve got some stories right and I think that everyone listening or watching will actually be able to identify their own examples too of where there’s this clutter that exists in your systems. The difference is is that if you’ve actually got a way to think about it and understand where it comes from then it actually helps you work out how you can avoid it in the first place and then how you can work on it. So that idea of, that example that use it with the pre-starts that’s a really classic example of where that started in one place and then we’ve just gone oh that looks like a good idea over in that industry or that company or whatever and so that’s duplication by industry and so we’re going to duplicate it or we can generalize it so we might actually say well we’ll do a tool box talk and I’ve seen toolbox talks that have been done in administrative kind of businesses in white collar kind of context and so what we’re doing is we’re generalizing from one context to an entirely different context and we think that that’s still good safety and yet we don’t actually ask ourselves a question well why did it exist over there does it work over there and then why are we bringing it over here. Kobi – What’s new and what’s going on with the podcast? what’s happening there? what’s the most exciting insight you’ve got out of the podcast in the last couple of months? Andrew – that’s a really good question whose most interesting person you’ve spoken to recently you know what let’s actually have a look. Oh where’s my phone let’s actually go through it. Yeah and I’ll give you some and I’ll give you some insights, yeah that’s right. It’s interesting someone asked me the other day they said they talked about a particular episode remember he’s this bit in this episode? you were talking to so-and-so and I’m like no, I can’t, I can’t and you be like that – well we create a lot of content and the question is is where it lands with other people and it doesn’t always it’s not always stuff that is on the forefront of your mind all the time. Kobi – So here it is we’re in the back of the Safety on Tap Podcast. Andrew – No we’re just in iTunes. Kobi – We’ll tell them we’re in the dashboard so go to podcasts find your podcast provider if it’s iTunes or otherwise and and look for podcasts and look for Safety on Tap Podcast. Andrew – I’m gonna give you I’ll give you a couple of key highlights so one of the things that I’ve been doing recently is some more solo episodes, so you know learning by doing sort of sense. What I’ve been trying to do is to say is to do my own reflections and then to share that as well so what I’m tapping into is my own experience of learning and then the social learning comes through people being able to listen to the podcast. One that I did last week it’s called Time and Space and it’s funny here that happened over a couple of things that I was doing with some clients around facilitation and some change processes and some coaching and whatnot and it’s amazing how people kind of one of the biggest challenges they face in solving problems in consulting with their workforce, in engagement, in culture in leadership, is around people getting together and being able to meaningfully connect, communicate, connect whatever you want to call that but but there’s a getting together sense there’s a connectedness and and I and I kind of was just sitting there going I’ve got some amazing outcomes and seen some amazing outcomes with people recently and the common denominator in there was the fact that we had created in different contexts, the time and space for something to happen so whether it’s a senior manager he gets a whole group of people together from his organization or her organization in order to try and work out a new kind of safety initiative or whatever we don’t need to be so concerned about what the process is gonna or what the outcomes going to look like because you’ve got to be able to create a time and space and believe in the time and space to allow that outcome to emerge and that’s true engagement that’s true human centered design thinking. That also works in the context of coaching you know me coming all the way out here I’m not from Sydney, so I come and come and all the way out here to spend time with you is about me creating time and space in my life to learn, to grow, to share, to be challenged, to challenge each other to create you know good content like this that’s all about time and space as much as this is an amazing production we don’t spend a whole lot of time so time planning it so time and space is one of those things human centered design and Sarah Pizzelle, a human factor specialist, was talking about human centered design and that’s pretty phenomenal I think that idea of actually going we think in safety that it’s all about looking after people and yet most of the way we behave is that we push the people to the side, the people were trying to help and we then just plough on with you whatever it is that we’re working on and then the people are looking on the sidelines of what we’re doing I took a really good article adapted really good article that I wrote for the safe cat magazine in New Zealand and it was called from ‘Teflon to Coach’ and that was one of my early experiences as a as a safety person in a company that you’ve worked with before which is when we actually met and it was that idea that at one stage this senior manager I was the business partner for said to my boss you know this guy’s just Teflon, you know? and that was it and that person Kobi – Say the rest of it shit don’t stick. Andrew- Yeah and so it was a really interesting reflection on me going well that’s that’s totally wrong I’m doing this about enablement, empowerment and front line leadership and all this sort of stuff and yet the point was is that there was a disconnect between what she expect than what I expected and so it was about closing, as a story about closing that gap and it was a bit movement on my part and moving on her part as well and so that was an interesting journey as well so a couple of interesting things on. I’ve got some interesting guests lined up to you coming up as well. Kobi – what’s your thoughts on, I mean I’ve I’ve got my own observations between Australian and the U.S in terms of sometimes I feel or different markets and I’m not going to say Australia versus a U.S but sometimes I’ll go somewhere and I feel like we dealt with that 10 years ago. ‘Oh wow’ that’s really interesting we’re not doing that. What’s been your experience as you start to embark on this sort of global journey as you know as seeing differences in similarities? Andrew – Yeah, so I think I’ll draw a big contrast so there’s obviously contrast between first world countries as a loose concept and then second or third world countries so I think then in that sense often the problems like clutter for example, so we’re talking about management systems clutter that’s real first world problem because we’ve got you know people go into working on bamboo scaffolding in bare feet in you know countries and you know a really good friend of mine and mentor of mine talked about how in the global business he was part of one of their biggest challenges in one of the countries that they were working in was just getting people to wear seat belts in cars, especially cabs because that was people were getting killed all the time. So it kind of so in that sense I think that’s important to make sure that we have a bit of an understanding of our context that it is all relative in terms of other differences so if we talk about places like the U.S, Australia and even say the UK a lot of people would say that the UK is kind of leading the way but one of the greatest challenges and they’ve they’ve had public inquiries into this is around that over bureaucratization whether it’s swung too far and so I think there’s lessons we can learn from that one of the things that I was kind of probably most interested in and was hoping to influence and I quite haven’t haven’t quite cracked the nut yet is having a look at the experience when Australia introduces harmonized legislation in safety and then New Zealand does and you kind of go between 2011, what was before that in Australia, and then in the last few years when New Zealand has how could they avoid some of the mistakes that we’re making some of the lessons we can learn and i don’t think there’s any learning whatsoever. I think that they’re going through the whole same process of fear, due diligence driving fear executives getting confused to be at their executive function or not especially and non executive function versus management function, all of those same things are happening in New Zealand that’s at least the feedback that I’m getting from people over there in terms of countries like the US. We’ve got a contrast where Australia has performance based or gold based legislation so it says keep people safe and you’ve got to figure out how you’re gonna do that and in the U.S it’s far more prescriptive and so again it’s interesting where there’s no one right way to do it but but what it means is that it’s far easier to be black-and-white about what your plan looks like and what you’ve got to work on and we’ve got compliance based in the U.S. In Australia it’s far harder in performance-based countries like Canada and the UK it’s far harder so we kind of stumbled our way around it a little bit. Kobi – Do you think I’m just listening between the words there do you think that maybe in the desire to have this performance-based legislation and you could, you can criticize the people for writing the white papers in that way that they’ve potentially created this over bucratic process because they’ve said go figure it out and we’re not quite sure so we write too much as a result. Andrew – So I think there’s. Kobi – Maybe Trump is a good thing? Andrew – I’m not gonna go there but there’s no one right way to do it and I think the point is that what can we actually learn about it so despite the fact that we talk about performance-based legislation in Australia there’s plenty of things that are still prescriptive so confined spaces is a really good one, hazardous substances is a really good one, GHS and that sort of stuff so there are still a lot of specific things we can do they still call up Australian standards and Australian standards are relatively prescriptive so in that sense and we’re not totally in the dark I think the question comes down to you know what’s reasonably practicable the sad thing is that it only ever gets tested when something really drastically goes wrong and the guy or gal in the wig sitting in the big chair in the courtroom is the one that makes the call and so I think what it means is that we don’t have enough conversations about what that means in practice in our business and so we become really conservative or we just go by the seam of our pants we’re not really sure and there are businesses that I’ve worked with where there’s no conversation whatsoever about what’s reasonably practicable and yet that’s the only thing that matters in terms of really complying with that legislation. The regulators are struggling though because a lot of the regulators don’t know how to enforce performance-based legislation apart from prosecution so an inspector will go out an inspector in the process of efficiency because remember they’ve got a system they’re working to in the process of assurance and efficiency they’re actually going to go what can I see that looks like safety and what they’re looking for is safety work and they’re not often looking for the safety of work. Classic example company that was speaking to not long ago, engineering firm they do lots of machining of big heavy metal parts dyes and things like that and and so they had been that invested a lot of money in a really good gantry crane system to make sure that they could move these things around to minimize manual handling risk inspector walks in and says where’s all your staff, where’s your records that their riggers, that they’re qualified riggers because they’re operating a crane and so they had taken the prescriptive requirements for a crane totally out of context and said we want to see that your riggers and actually what I’m going to do is I’m going to put a prohibition notice on you so you can’t use your cranes and so they this business and there weren’t a huge business there they’re kind of shrugging their shoulders we thought we were doing the right thing here performance based the regulator comes in and they did what they thought was probably the right thing to do but I don’t know it’s up to everyone else I suppose to make the call on whether they think on balance that was actually the best outcome that’s an example I think of where the regulator’s are struggling but I’ve got a good relationship with Martin Campbell who’s the new director at Safe Work ESI and he’s he’s an example of an executive in the regulators who’s really actually trying to make a difference I think I’m trying to change. Well he’s in ICAC at the moment for all of the stuff he’s inherited but but I think it’s intermittent about that and so I think that that’s that’s really strong leadership about them saying you know what maybe maybe we’ve got to change the way we operate. Kobi – So talk more in terms of making that change and you know doing what we can do in this forum to talk about that, let’s talk more just for a minute about so that people can understand there’s a really key point that was was there a couple of seconds ago about safety work and working safely look just just talk through those two definitions for us so safety of work is kind of what goes on for the people doing the work that’s frontline operational safety if you like and then that’s the safety of work and then safety work is all the other stuff that you might read on a job description that you might look at in a management system that you would see in an order tour then a regulator would look for so that’s all of the audits and assessments and inspections and you know training and all the stuff that we do and so that’s kind of the distinction. Now those things all serve a purpose they all exist they’ve been created for some reason it’s just a question of us being clear on whether those things actually do relate to or contribute to the safety of work or not and in some instances there when we create safety work we actually increase risk. We actually reduce the safety of frontline work. An example of that is the amount of inductions for example that people have got to go through will often compress the amount of time they’ve actually got to do a job that creates risk and it construction sites are good examples of that where you’ve got principal contractors and sometimes clients and multiple stakeholders multiple inductions online inductions and in on-site inductions and all that sort of stuff so that’s a simple kind of example I’m not saying that happens all the time but sometimes that’s the trade off and that’s the unintended trade off and so I think that’s being conscious about what is this, what is this in front of us is it safety work or is it the safety of work and then what are we doing to contribute to those I think it’s the important question to ask. Kobi – So in terms of asking those questions if we go you know one step forward to more about what we’re pushing here at Best Practice and if we talk about culture and this is the culture of safety leaders and the culture of leaders in general and then the culture of the people out in the field. What are your thoughts around you know if we had you know there’s an argument that if we had great culture and we had great behaviors we wouldn’t need all this stuff in the first place. Where’s that at in industry at the moment. Andrew – So I think one of the interesting things that’s that this research has tapped into is this idea that culture is kind of a nebulous concept in you know what’s a way so a lot of people talk about it not a lot of people really understand it and I’m in that category of I don’t know that I understand it enough in order to actually make a true difference in it in a way that I think you can actually connect your effort and the outcome. So a lot of the organizational research has actually moved on from culture and they’re looking at this concept of institutional logics and I’m not going to pretend to know the ins and outs of that but the basic idea is is that we apply a logic for certain things and some of those logics are shared within our organization so within workgroups, within teams, within whole organizations, so if we become as professionals and systems professionals or safety professionals under standards of logic interpreters of logic if we understand the rationale behind why people are doing things and why we’re doing things then it enables us to change the way we work so an example of that might be you know it’s logical that we have a system that generates non-conformance, that generates actions, that create safety clutter, that’s logical. So if we understand that and we kind of get a common understanding of that then we can start to challenge the logic and we can go okay right what does connected with an outcome and so I think that from my point of view if we start to understand more about logics, which is the rationale for the way people work, I find that far more practical, I think is the right word? Practical for us to kind of wrap our hands around it and understand it and then do something about it and I think that that’s that goes to all different aspects of safety in particular so if you look at things like culture and leadership and human error and investigations and things going wrong or whatever I was doing some work with a quite a client recently where they were looking at motor vehicle risk and we went through that process of looking at incidents and they were really keen to understand what were some what causes an error individual decision-making, self-awareness, you know all that sort of stuff came up and then and then I asked everyone in the room whether they’ve ever gotten in their car and then arrived at their destination and not really knowing what’s happened in between everyone puts their hand up right and so I said so it’s interesting when we think about the logic that goes into us making sense of our investigations because the very thing that makes us successful in that driving process where we got there okay is the very thing, when we’re on automatic pilot that can contribute to things going wrong, and but our logic says oh well someone made a decision in that, someone was conscious about that, and so just goes to show that we don’t quite understand what’s going on up here so when we break it down in there trying to understand the logics that’s behind things which aren’t always conscious I think that makes it far more tangible for us to take action. Does that make sense? Kobi – Absolutely, one hundred percent like it is and you can you know, I can think about times in my career you know certainly that scenario and then you can say well what sets you up, what sets you up for a successful outcome or a non successful outcome? is it conscious or you know subconscious, unconscious, whatever it might be. Conscious calm you know what’s that matrix you know you got unconsciously incompetent and then you got consciously incompetent and then what is it consciously incompetent and then unconscious competence, something like that. So you know I said I think there’s all that and that’s a whole other you know that’s a whole other conversation so tell me something we’ve got managers, watching this we’ve got leaders, watching this so we’ve got you know individuals starting to embark on their career with once we sort of summarize all that and you’re someone who’s looking after a management system you’re someone who is you know working to try and you know take this and you know you’re really, really you know inspired by what you hear on the podcast or you’re inspired by what you read and you want to start to execute and implement what are your, what’s your three how to’s or your five how to is in terms of someone you know when we first met what would you do differently? because you when we first met you know we were both a lot younger than we are today and you know we were finding our way. What guidance would you give someone who’s you know starting out to starting starting their journey of influence? Andrew – Yeah there’s only really one, which is get out there and seek to understand first that’s it, so and I’ve had this question recently with people you know I’m starting a job where I’m transitioning into a new safety role someone I’ve been talking to about that what should I do and I said should I read codes of practice, you know should I go and do some training you know. That’s right and I said no no no go out there and understand what’s going on and I mean that’s in the context of understand what’s going on in your work. understand the people, who you serve understand your business, your industry whatever it is but don’t go out there and start to start to tinker. Don’t get like, hands off, two ears, one mouth use them in that ratio. Kobi – one nose with two nostrils, two ears, one mouth . So smell, ears, look, eyes. Andrew – yeah absolutely so that that’s really it for me I think if we were going to boil it down so you’re gonna understand the logics that are applied, you’re gonna understand a baseline around people’s views on safety or the views on your management systems. You’re gonna understand the things that are important to different people, you’re gonna understand what drives them in their work, you’re gonna understand the pain points, you’re gonna understand why they wake up and go to work every day. You know I was doing some work recently with a crew in an electrical distributor and there was there was a work experience kid part of the crew and so part of what I was doing was kind of observing and understanding what was going on in reality so not the imaginary work of systems and procedures but reality and I said to this work experience kid and I haven’t seen a working experience kid for a decade and I was really curious and I said why are you here? and he said my dad works you know for this other mob he stands up power poles and he goes he comes home from work and he all stand up seven or eight or nine power poles in a day and he just had this sense of awe about telling me that was it. That was it that’s why I wanted to do working experience to do the work like his dad so he’s big why right and I only learned that because I was curious because I asked I could have just ignored the work experience kid thinking what am I gonna learn from him. You know so that sense of that sense of want to go to work every day and create something amazing. So to your point it’s about going out there and just seeking to understand first so hands off don’t feel the pressure to go and start to meddle or change things to put your stamp on things or whatever, that’s my best advice. Kobi – That’s awesome and I think my exactly the same advice, exactly the same point. is find out the problem. It’s find out the problem, it’s don’t theres solution, solution, solution. I think that’s what you know that’s my interpretation what you’re saying about tinkering is what is the problem first seek to understand that the problem that you’re solving and too much of this bureaucracy and too much of all the other stuff that we’re complaining that we’ve got now comes from solving a different problem thats not well understood Andrew – Absolutely and so that’s an example I mean the whole thing that we got talking about with the safety clutter that conversation flied from Kobe and I’m making, you and I, making trying to create sense of some of the work that I was doing with Dave Proven and these master classes and the research that was done around professional identity and I said to you, this piece around our professional identity which we’re doing master classes on is great and understanding where we’ve come from and where we are now where we might be able to go, that’s excellent but that’s probably not the biggest problem right now for safety people out there in particular but this issue of clutter is so the conversations that’s the shift and so I’m getting more focused on understanding what that problem is and then how at least in my context we can help to sort that out. Kobi – I think the question is like we can’t solve the problem with regulators creating legislation because that’s just too hard. I mean we can vote with our feet and you can do all that sort of stuff and you can you know companies can choose where they want to operate from like that’s the reality right the company’s going to go it’s too hard to operate in this climate we’re going to move to this climate particularly now of the internet, we’re gonna move the whole production to or we’re gonna start it in this place or the ones in the more easy to operate jurisdictions are going to be the ones that survive but someone was telling me that we’re in and, I can’t remember who it was so I don’t need to worry about too much about it, but they operated ports around the world well they were working in ports around the world and all the ports are different because they’ve got either really really strict requirements like if you were to land in a port here in Sydney or it’s a timber wharf that you’re trying not to like bowl over with your big massive ship you know and and you’re starting to worry. You’re actually worrying, you’re getting to a particular port with a ship for example and maybe it’s a shipping company with Freight you’re actually worried whether when you put your stuff down on that wharf whether it’ll hold it so it’s there’s the regulations here where we’re operating in the regulatory environment is so tightly controlled that I would almost argue that you’ve got more assumptions because if you were to land a ship here, dock a ship here in Sydney you just assume that because there’s so many regulations that your ships like they wouldn’t let you in basically if they didn’t think that their ship was able to handle your ship for example and your stock and all that sort of stuff versus you go to an environment so there’s this concept that an unregulated environment while higher risk could potentially get people thinking more because it’s not prescriptive in they’re saying well you figure out whether you when you put your stuff down on our wharf whether it’s going to break or not. Andrew – Yeah no I totally agree and I think that that idea of adding more safety actually does take away from the dynamic assessment of risk that’s kind of what you’re saying, whether that’s a ship or whether that’s individual decision making or whatever I totally agree I mean we had again a client I was working with recently where they had some vehicle monitoring stuff that was going on and they considered that to be a hazard because it created more distraction with things beeping and flashing and all that sort of stuff then letting them focus on the road now whether that’s right or wrong I think that that kind of points to that idea of going sometimes more safety actually takes away from safety of decision-making and individual risk assessment so I think that idea if you have a look at kind of what, going back to risk what are the critical things that are going to go wrong and if you can actually apply those things from the higher standard context if you like the first world countries then I think that having that consistency across the board is actually a good thing so there’s a balance with making sure that the safety work that you’re doing is actually generalized in a way that’s logical so that people then don’t need to go okay at each different port I’ve got a different kind of radio call and a different way of coming in a different form of piloting and you know all that sort of stuff so I think that there’s there’s an element of making sure that you make the job easier for the frontline people to do but at the same time I think that you you need to make sure that you’re not applying just the strictest standard across the board and that especially applies when you’re using work forces from those other countries and supervisors in particular from those other countries because you’re just trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and so what you’ll find is that there’s non-compliance and we’ll drive control down the line and we’ll try and force these people to do that and it just work like that and so you’re going you’ll go into a loop, a vicious loop, that again you find that that’s going on over here well these poor buggers are trying to get the job done and going looking from the outside going you guys are just full of it because we’ve struggling with real problems on the ground here so does that make sense? So I think in that sense I mean when we talk about compliance and again going back to those the goal based legislation versus the prescriptive context so if you compare Australia and in the U.S in that example a lot of the compliance that we complain about in Australia is self-created, it’s self-imposed, so whilst we might go oh we’ve got all these obligations that we need to comply with most of it is in two or industry-related at least as opposed to actually specifically required. Kobi – It comes back to why like that’s what I keep saying I’m banging on about this every single day why are we doing this? and it’ll be internally creative so yeah put it in the bin go back to your actual and I’ll deal it like negotiating a contract this morning talking about specifically that thing in a contract clause which is what are you legal and other requires what are your interested parties asking for as actually not as much as you think. Andrew – Yeah absolutely and so I think if we ask that question of going well where did these requirements actually come from if they’re perceived requirements then engaging in so the gap between we have to do it in this country and then the standards are down here and there’s a gap between the two if you’re asking why it becomes a more conscious process you’re probably going to get a better outcome because you go these are the couple of critical things that we need to focus on and then the rest we can actually leave behind or at least maybe allow some discretion for. Kobi – So you’ve been doing some really interesting events lately so talk to us about some of those you know what’s happening there in this you’re becoming the you’re becoming the the country’s most favorite emcee. Andrew – What’s interesting, and speaker, it’s interesting I realized in serving my mission my big why around helping people with professional development there’s a there’s this kind of this paradox or core conflict that exists for me which is that I’m trying to say to people do less point-in-time professional development we’ve talked about that before on talking business and yet what I’m doing is that I’m going to meet people at those point in time events because that’s where people are going and so that’s important that’s me thinking that understand the people who I’m trying to help and and sometimes I am I cause a bit of discomfort at those events around the format of the events in particular so a couple of interesting things at their safety Institute of Australia conference in Melbourne, which was a couple of months ago, I did a presentation called 19 on health and safety things to improve health and safety so the idea was using innovation thinking to say if you’re looking at a particular problem then just do the opposite so if you’re trying to solve health and safety in the way we operate then just do the opposite do you non health and safety stuff and so one of those things was in 40 minutes I had 19 things to cover which is absolutely impossible to do and so I made sure that I actually said to people deliver what you’re gonna promise, deliver what you promise but it doesn’t have to be literally all in one go so don’t turn the fire hose onto people one of them was I delivered I talked about five principles of non health and safety things people could do I gave them the rest at the end and most of those things I had done in the presentation that just hadn’t come out of my mouth so it’s about the way I was behaving not just so it’s kind of like a ninja tactic if you like an interestingly someone I’m working with at the moment it came to me and they called me up and they said I need you to come and help me and my team to be more like ninjas so you know yeah so that’s been pretty cool going to the U.S for the OHS leaders summit in October which will be pretty cool so that’s emceeing that event Australian debut of an event over in the US which should be interesting because I think Australians we’ve got a lot to offer in the U.S market in that context and that’s an invite-only event for Health and Safety leaders just the senior health and safety leaders and the best benefit out of that some people think that it’s elitist I really like it because it enables peers to meet with peers and so they kind of understand each other they know the room they’re going to use people who understand their perspective and I think that’s got real value in the in there in the community development context whether that’s that event or whether it’s you getting together with their safety officers from other companies in your area you know whatever it is it’s about knowing that people who understand your perspective that’s really valuable and and the safe guard conference in New Zealand we were talking recently, I’ll be speaking in 2019 at their conference and it’s on it’s on dare to disrupt is likely to be their theme and I said so what are we going to do for you keynote presentation and I said well I’m not doing a keynote presentation like what do you mean and I said well if you want me to do to disrupt then we’re not going to do what you’ve always done we’re going to try something different and so that for the New Zealand audience that’s gonna be a really interesting one well where I’m pushing them and they’re pushing me to go beyond just the standard talking head behind the lectern and kind of presentation and again that’s designed to be an experiment in disrupting and you know it doesn’t need to be it doesn’t need to be the full-on over-the-top you know tech startup disruption sometimes it’s just changing a little bit of the way that you work Kobi – What if you did it differently for 48 hours? what if you did it what if you did it exactly the opposite way for 48 hours. Andrew – Yeah and it’s funny because they said to me though they were really emphatic about making sure that I understood that their intent around the topic was dare to disrupt, so we need to understand that there’s the bit about my decision and then there’s the what I’m going to do so the daring is one bit the way I think and then there’s it’s kinda like the two creations Stephen Covey’s stuff and I said to them why did a podcast a reflection in the last couple of weeks which is called Permission and the basic concept there is that you don’t need permission, you do not need permission to go and talk to that senior person, to go and try something different, to remove something from your system, to reach out to someone in your network who you’d love to talk to, whatever it is you do not need permission that’s often the thing that holds most people back is feeling like they need a reason or an excuse or someone to say yes you can go and do that and the thought process is important though because like you said it’s not like you go out and you go we’re gonna spend a million bucks on something that’s not the kind of thing that you go out and do straightaway but you might say well what’s our wireframe what’s a rapid prototype that we can draw on the back of a napkin and we go and test tomorrow whatever that looks like you can do that that’s the bit we don’t need permission for yeah and then you get feedback and the whole process builds on itself but it all starts with not needing permission. Kobi – Absolutely yeah and piece of advice go first seek to understand, first seek to understand then you don’t need permission after that because you understand like you’ve you figured it out yourself. So let’s talk for a moment about this point in time professional development like we do it you know we’re advocating it, you’re advocating it, we’re trying to get away from it but it’s still there. Why do you think it’s still there? like you know we’ve got these self-service systems, you got, you know this sort of stuff you can watch it you you know people are gonna see this in years you know years from today. Why do you think point in time professional development still there? I think I think there’s a couple of reasons one is that the education system that most of us have grown up in teaches us that, which is you go to a place and there is a person there called a teacher and that teacher is the person who enables information transfer to occur and you’ll sit down and shut up and you’ll sit in rows and you say good morning mr. so-and-so, good morning mr. and so that’s for permission to go to the toilet all that sort of stuff that’s the education system that most of us have grown up in so that I think that just leads into ask your boss for money to go to the conference and we’ll go to the conference and that’s a once here thing and you feel like it’s an absolute you just have so much gratitude for this this development that you’ve got and when I ask people about professional development it’s like that’s what they describe they describe the thing that fits in a box where they get the lanyard or the piece of paper or whatever. I think that that’s so our education system is one thing to do with it. I think the other is that it’s easier to do that than it is to do that the more rewarding professional development so the people that I talk to if you go to conferences the most important question for me is what changes based on what you’ve learned that’s new or has challenged you after you go to a conference? and who asks that question? and almost no one has any answers to that so the boss doesn’t ask what was my ROI on spending that money at the conference or even people who put money in their own pocket for conferences which are getting more and more expensive they don’t they can’t tell you 12 months down the track what they got out of it, that’s not a good return on investment. Whereas if you look at like the stuff that I advocated coaching for example I can show a return based on every single coaching interaction that I have with someone which is incremental meaningful progress towards clear goals so we start our coaching started it has to have a goal it has to have an endpoint you’re working towards or a problem you’re trying to overcome. You can’t coach without that and so I think it’s about the model I think that that’s part of it too. That it’s harder to do that but it’s more rewarding. Kobi – Takes a lot of discipline to do you know self-paced learning look I’ve done a lot of it and I can honestly say that it is by far I’m getting a far greater return, I’m not gonna say it was easier or harder, lot harder to do that you know before you walked into my office you know before we started recording you know I was looking at some more self-paced you know professional development learning that I paid for, I’ve organized it, it’s done I just need to sit down and physically get through it and it takes a lot of discipline to carve out that time invest that time, carve out the time, whatever you know dedicate the time if you like to doing that and I think you know if you if you say look at tertiary studies for example University there’s a whole bunch of assignments but they’ve got a deadline and a due date so maybe we’re making in a mistake as online trainers and facilitators and coaches that we’re not actually providing deadlines and maybe it’s the dead, you know the, I think we all agree on the problem the problem is development more efficiently so skills the knowledge and experience that’s fast-tracked and accelerated I think we both agree that the better way to do that is self-paced and on online for example self-paced with whatever interactions might come with that you know in terms of how much physical one-on-one help people need, one-on-one or one or many, but maybe we’re making the mistake that part of the influence needs to be the scarcity and the scarcity of time so with a university assignment for example scarcity of time is you’ve got 10 weeks to do this here’s your assignment day one of the semester end of the semester there’s your deadline and if you don’t do that you don’t get the mark so it does drive a bit of fear of missing out but I also wonder with you know with maybe these events have the wrong label and this is me challenging the marketplace I’m gonna argue that there for entertainment nature that someone’s going there to be entertained it’s it’s under the professional development but you know the most recent conference I went to I can’t say honestly that any of the presentations at that conference they gave me an insight but I sat you know they gave me insight into stuff and maybe a bit of a prompt to look at things but I spent most of those presentations googling what the person was talking about and so it put me in a room in an environment but I was still doing my own professional development by verifying and validating what that person was saying or researching them or their background or whatever that might be so maybe that’s something to consider for you guys out there who are it’s I guess what we’re challenging you you’re expecting that your professional development is you know it’s time-stamped it’s basically you know you’re going to a specific place at a specific time to do specific professional development or you’re thinking like that but our experience like you know, I say this with a lot of authority our experiences that our observations of people improving more rapidly more effectively more efficiently and certainly cheaper if money is the issue is to be doing that self placed learning. Andrew – Yeah I agree, and that’s one of the concept that comes out of, one of the concepts that comes out of IT around a sprint development and so the idea is is that instead of going through a long drawn-out development process you create a time constraint for the people involved and they’ve got to deliver a result within that time constraint and so that’s one of the things that I’ve actually got in the pipeline at the moment is having a look at how we can create a little bit of a squeeze in the process in order to actually drive it and I experienced that contrast with the two types of coaching that I do so we do online asynchronous text-based self-paced coaching online asynchronous text-based and self-paced the sell and I said this to someone the other day when they were asking me about the two options to evaluate them and I said progress is slower in the self-paced context whereas if we do real-time one-on-one face-to-face coaching then we have markers we have points at which we know we’ve got a rock up and we don’t want to not have done the homework or made progress and so but inevitably again it’s just about understanding the mechanism of what’s working and there are trade-offs there are benefits of both of those things but absolutely I agree that if you’re going to do any professional development you’ve got to be asking yourself about how much return are you’re going to get out of that and how can you change that so doing that in the social context this is some of the ideas that I’ve got around group coaching and some of these sprint concepts too and I’ve got to be prepared to fail on putting those out into the market and seeing if we get any feedback from it we’ll learn something either way as kind of like a middle place if you like to your point, create a bit of time constraint, do it socially, make sure you’re getting an outcome but and it’s not all knowledge, it’s not all knowledge based, it’s about action. Kobi – If someone’s feeling, out there in the market, you’re feeling really really overwhelmed you’re feeling like there’s so much professional development there’s so much online you know there’s you know we’re talking about coaching in work, health and safety in your space we’re talking about coaching in Best Practice development systems here at Best Practice if someone’s feeling really really overwhelmed what should I do, where should I go, you know what should I look at, you know I really don’t know what I want to do, like I’m gonna figure out what I wanted to do in my career later on you’re thinking all of those sorts of things what what’s your guidance for someone who’s just you know whether their health and safety professional whether they’re any sort of professional watching this they could be anything so actually get down some to some nuts and bolts in sort of you know what sort of professional development should I do like so maybe it’s like to cook. What might be some, like a decision making flow that they can go through? Andrew – Yeah, so I’ve got a model that I use or not I’ve got, I’ve borrowed it from hundreds and hundreds of years of Japanese tradition which is called iki guy so your reason for being and there’s a podcast episode on on ikigai how to find your ikigai and so I use that in the context of coaching and there are four elements to it so if you imagine a Venn diagram that’s got overlaps and there’s one central overlap of all four and those four elements are what am I good at, what do I love, what problems does the world have that needs solving, and what can I get paid for and so I think all of us would love to go to work with about a balance of all of those things and this is in the work context but even if you looked at it outside of your work there are things that you do outside of your work that have nothing to do with money because they fulfill other aspects of your ikigai and then you go to your job to do the money bit right so it’s a really good way to have a look at your life holistically so I always use that with people in coaching to say just reflect on what are the things that fit in each of those bubbles all those circles that will help you then work out where are you now and where do you want to go, so in the work context if you’re bringing your job, so that assuming that you’re in a job already, and you’re seeking to understand and you’re working out what’s the biggest problems are the pain points for the customers the internal customers you’re trying to serve you will be more successful at work if you start to work on that. Someone hit me up the other day who have had coaching conversations we’ve been and they said again a new safety person they said I’m gonna read lots of codes of practice and I said why? They’re getting lots of questions and I said why? like is that really necessary in order for you to help them now it may very well be in which case that’s the perfect professional development for that person it just might not be and so it’s a question of actually asking what’s the connection between the effort that I’m putting in and then who am i serving and is at the right time. Kobi – Well how to teach you people to find and read the codes of practice themselves Andrew – Well that could be part of it absolutely and that but that might be great for us to say oh well that’s an ideal view if this business relies on safety people to give them answers then as much as that’s not my view of how our safety function is most effective that’s appropriate for that context. Kobi – I mean that’s just the tune tuning into risk-based thinking that’s what I’m thinking about everyday, thinking like that like one quarter at a time and so for you out there watching and listening is you know we do we do sometimes try to go a little bit big picture and we’re consuming all these content like you’re sitting there consuming this content right now just have a think about that just stop and think okay what what you know set myself twelve weeks from now you know we’re coming to the end of 2018 I hate to say that but it’s you know we just hit the beginning of September, it’s disappearing quickly and so I’m now just thinking about okay it moves so quickly so I’ve got to move quickly to nail some things in this could really little literally creating that sense of urgency for myself at that time stamp you feel like to nail things down because the next 12 weeks will be just gone, you know look the weekends gone, then the weeks gone gone and the weekends go so you know I guess that’s just psychologically how I give myself my own sense of urgency to say well I’ve got 12 weeks I’ve got to knock these stuff off and then I don’t go too big keep it really small you got the you got the end in mind maybe that that could be you know you nowhere near where your business plan was in the beginning is just think that 12 weeks ahead and just go right what can we knock off in there in the next week. Andrew – I think that’s really good advice because thinking about my own priorities I don’t know that I’ve actually got to set myself hard deadlines on a lot of them. Kobi – Yeah look it’s that set that whole self-paced approach right as an entrepreneur you know or even you know you know while you might throw the entrepreneurial label over the top of us any individual who’s got the autonomy to look after their own career it’s an entrepreneurial pursuit. I’m selling my I’m selling my intellectual property, my time, you know whatever that might be so just be mindful that it’s running yourself like a business and just going okay what’s my business plan for the next or it’s the quarter your quarter by the quarter how do I go this quarter, how do I go next quarter? That same approach and that may see you if you’re feeling frustrated if you’re feeling like someone who’s not you know you didn’t make any traction in the last 12 weeks, no problems, it’s you know there’s there’s hold yourself accountable to the next 12 weeks don’t worry about the past just get on with it. Andrew – And it’s funny because I ask people that all the time I’ll catch up with someone and I’ll say how did that new idea go that you were gonna try? hasn’t happened. Kobi – Yeah so what questions have you got for us what’s a what’s the biggest challenge for you guys at the moment? Kobi – I think the biggest challenge for us at the moment is audience engagement is we are getting our webinar numbers are growing very rapidly and I think our webinars they are and they’re and there are a lot of fun, we’ve got one in a couple of days time in this very room, so we’re getting good numbers so we’re getting you know the last webinar 150 people joining us live 150 a month live is pretty good. I think you know, it’s not the record but it’s it’s you know we had that big spike and now we’re just on that steady growth record numbers without any boosting so we’re not it’s not paid advertising to get more people to join the audience, I think the words starting to get out there that there’s this great thing on once a month. The biggest challenge is getting those people to ask questions feel the confidence to expose themselves because it’s potentially community of unknown people and to get on the chat and get that get that question into the questions list so that you know clears that blockage because it’s ultimately free so I think the biggest thing for us is is to give people the confidence to come out from behind their keyboard and ask a question publicly in that public environment because it’s not like you’re in the room at the conference and you’ve sort of sussed everybody it’s not for everybody but someone will go you know they’ll feel the nerves and they’ll stand up and ask the question at the conference, this is you know it’s completely public so I think there’s a little bit of fear there where people will you know they’re a bit scared making themselves vulnerable. if you’re really really clever you just set up a generic Gmail it doesn’t uniquely identify you and ask the question anyway yeah just asking for a friend so I think that’s that’s one of our biggest challenges for us again the biggest challenge is balancing you know second you know second out of the three is balancing all of this forward-thinking stuff with just you know just selling and delivering and selling and delivering and getting cash in the door and it doesn’t matter how big you are that you know the day-to-day challenge for us is we’ve got 30 people we’ve got 30 mouths to feed, 30 families 30 mortgages, lots of stuff. So I’m challenged every day by Jack needing to sit and put this stuff together and at the same time you know we’ve we fiddled with our software system and invoices didn’t go out and so I’m like alright I’ve got to go on to sort out a hundred eighty thousand dollar problem with the database yeah because that can put a big that’s like you know effectively that’s our whole overdraft you know sucked up by a software oversight so I got to like right okay what I’ve got three weeks basically to sort that out so it’s things like that that are that are that are obviously a constant challenge. We are moving also to to a biggest scale obviously, so you know we’re seeing we’re seeing leads coming into the business that are unprecedented we thought we were busy last year but with some tweaking and taking the time to focus now with the work that Jack’s been doing we’re seeing unprecedented levels of super good quality interest and customer service yeah look just A/B customer service and for us that’s about our growth I think we’ve done the work now which i think is really good we’ve done the work around internally understanding our why, understanding our purpose, and understanding our culture so our recruitment is gonna be much smarter. Andrew – Yeah Kobi – So I think the challenge with any business if there’s three core pillars to every business there’s and this is generic and and everything plays into that but it’s the business structure that the business structure that gets set up and the business model and it’s hard to understand in the beginning as you you had the same challenge and many people many people have this challenge is what is my what is going to be my business model and my financial structure because you’ve got this thing but you don’t quite know how it’s going to get monetized and we are no different like we have stuff we monetize but we still got stuff that we don’t monetize yeah but a core part of that business model could be the thing that you do that you leverage to course monetization like your podcast your leveraging to cause monetization so there’s that structure, there’s that core pillar. It’s like a three-legged stool the other part is the systems and processes that we talk about that talk to the legal and other requirements if you like. Now the other leg which is the critical, more critical than any other leg, if you haven’t got the monetization right you’re going to collapse if you haven’t got your systems and processes right you’re going to collapse but the core leg that I’m more appreciative now than ever before is the people leg and the people leg is all about you know that common comment and I’ve had a conversation down in the basement car park of this building this morning with the gentleman, how do you find good people? Now everybody is a good person but having the good people in the right place he’s the most difficult part because sometimes we have to have an uncomfortable conversation you know you’re fired is you know there’s I think there’s it’s time to start having conversations about you’re not in the right place, rather than you’re fired you need to leave because you know an organization like Best Practice tries to rehome people if that makes sense. If you’re not the right player for this field, okay, we have a big network where can we rehome you yeah and so I think your work that you’re talking about with your Venn diagram is really fundamentally important but the challenge for us the specific third challenge for us is refining our recruitment to be more specific because in the past we’ve been either A too quick to get someone else to do the recruitment for us and that was when I say someone else that was an internal person doing the recruitment and so now we’re using we’ve got a member and a player on our team and helping us with recruitment but she’s external and so we’ve we’ve sort of in the past gone let someone else do it. I think I need to be integrally involved certainly for the short term for the next two quarters in recruitment to ensure until I can impart that knowledge on someone else about what culture, process, the right person on the right seat is I think I need to do that myself and you know and I think that I think I can handle that you know we’re forecasting you know one to two people a month onboarding over the next 12 months which will see our stuff numbers double you know there’s affordability so that sort of stuff but I’ve gotta be really really you’ve got to be really really critical about letting the players join your team and I think we’re too quick to go yet you’ll do and then we spin off into all the other things that we’ve talked about bureaucracy, process, system, culture, safety the whole thing so I think you know we’re not you know they’re generic problems you’re the same you need a Jack but Lexi’s coming back soon, so I think that that’s our biggest challenge and I’m working, we’re working on it like it’s not a challenge that’s not being worked on it’s a challenge that’s being worked on but actually knowing is gonna yeah we’re focused on it and nailing it’s gonna be really tricky now how do we take that and turn that into a winning formula that I then scale it and delegate it because I’ve delegated it too quickly in the past I think that has been my mistake and we’re suffering at the moment a symptom of that process being delegated and and from a customer service perspective we’ve got some people in the business they’re not as focused on customer service as I am for example you and we currently have a what would Kobe do policy because I’m we’re having to say have a think about what Kobe would do in this situation know what you would do what you think you know we’ve had a situation recently and we get out and we do audits and assessments we’ve have auditors yelling at people. I’m like what the f**k, what is that? you know like where’d that come from? Like talk about giving people permission, I did not give permission for anyone to do any yelling so there’s a and and that’s a symptom of just people’s you know what they got going on in their own head and all that sort of shit you know that’s always so stuff so it’s just been really interesting to look at that and go hang on a minute that’s not where’d that come from left field you know and it’s but it’s a symptom of not doing that quite that recruitment based on culture first has been has been really interested getting a better understanding of ‘why’ absolutely yeah so we’ve got we’ve definitely done all of the really cool stuff like this is our Y this is our vision this is our mission and it’s incredible how many hundreds and hundreds of people buy into that but what we did what we just went was okay if you buy into that let’s join you know not you still got to go through a whole point and that’s a mistake we make we look at this you know we can attract all these people and thinking oh everyone buys into your why any mission we forgot about actually you still got to put you we took the gate away yeah so so we’ve got to work on that and they’re loved everybody’s lovely people but we’ve got it’s just like soccer players on a football field you know we just got to get move move a few people around or maybe they’re playing the wrong code so I’m being very diplomatic as I talk about this. Andrew – No I think that’s good what I appreciate is that you’re also open about that about sharing that and saying well things aren’t always perfect you know on this side of the camera and and that’s part of your generosity I think in saying to people well you know it’s not all bright and shiny and we’re all learning through the process. Kobi – And it’s hard work you know there’s no doubt about it like you know you see like I’m an avid Instagram user as much as we create content for Instagram and lights or stuff but you know when you talk about that there’s a guy I follow and he’s like you know success doesn’t come without hard work like it’s hard work like it’s hard work like you’re saying I’m it’s hard to get a podcast out on time look you’re not slack you just got shit going on you know and you just because your business is starting to grow and you’re starting to put more and more energy out into the industry it’s just you’ve put the same amount of energy into the industry it’s just that they still want your podcast so you’ve got to find a bit of extra energy. Andrew – Yeah I think for me it’s understanding you know the way that the podcast in itself actually contributes to the mission, my big why, and so my dad and great mentor talks about it’s it’s kind of the spine it’s the center of the skeleton of the business and the value that I offer to the market and individual people so it’s important to make sure that that gets looked after and that’s healthy and and continuing to you know you strengthen if you like so and that’s been really useful for me because it’s easy to get distracted from doing these other things you know we’ve all got mouths to feed and and all that sort of stuff and so making sure that we’re like in that health context looking after all the different parts of the body means that the body works effectively together so it’s really just a case of making sure that you understand where your core value comes from and I think that that’s probably the takeaway for you guys out there watching is that idea of understanding where your true value comes and a lot of people when I ask that question of them they don’t actually understand what people value from them and how they add that value so being more reflective on that I think would be a really good idea. Kobi – so thanks for joining us where can everyone find you? Andrew – safetyontap.com is the best way to check out the podcasts all the other information we’ve got and I love engaging with actual human beings so check me out on linkedin connect with me, send me a message, i’ll actually reply. Kobi – Yeah, perfect same with me so you can find me on Linkedin both of us commenting on each other’s posts at night often on Linkedin, so look for that so Andrew Barrett on Linkedin Kobi Simmat on LinkedIn we will put the LinkedIn handles down below in the description so look out for the Safety on Tap podcast if you’re a podcast listener at least go and listen to one and they are addictive so I’m pretty confident that you’ll listen to one you’ll listen to them all absolutely fantastic mate thank you for joining us once again. Andrew – lovely to be here. Kobi – and we’ll see you next time on talking business right here on Best Practice TV. Bye for now.